Interview with PROF. MUHAMMAD YUNUS in Dhaka

Monika Korber: I read a little bit in your books, I heard one of your speeches and I was wondering, what are the milestones in your life, that led you to get into the social business, to help people?

PROF. MUHAMMAD YUNUS: I would say the major thing was something that I discovered during the student time in the school. When I was 15 years old I had an opportunity to participate in a Boy Scout trip through North America and almost all over Europe.  So I could go outside and see the world while I was still a young kid. That has given me some orientation about the world. I could see how the world looks like and what kind of world we have here and I could compare. During my studies I was trying to see how to change things here in Bangladesh. I studied economics; and I wanted to study economics because I thought that will be the subject that we'll need to do economic difference.

Then I got the Fulbright scholarship to study in the US which gave me the chance to see the US society from a very close range. One thing is when you travel for one week, you come back after one week to your known world. But I was staying there for seven years at one stretch during the mid 70s, from 1965 until 1972 to be precise. This was an interesting time. Anti-Vietnam War demonstrations were going on everywhere in the US. I saw how students were rising against the government and how much pressure  it created to quit Vietnam. When we were students in Bangladesh (at that time Pakistan) we were demonstrating on the street against Vietnam War and thinking that whole of America was supporting it. But when I went to United States I saw that young people are against it, which made me feel a little better that there are some voices against it.

Monika Korber: that’s moving

PROF. MUHAMMAD YUNUS: This was one of the several important things that were going on. At the same time I saw the civil rights movement rising against the segregation of the Blacks. I was in the South. Racial discrimination shocked me. Blacks couldn’t go to the same restaurants, use the same toilet or go to the same university. That  was a crazy situation. I couldn’t believe that a civilized society can do something like that. For them it was a routine thing. The movement against racial discrimination and the whole civil rights movement led by Martin Luther King rocking the whole society. There was a tremendous demand for change. I was studying in Nashville and Martin Luther King was assassinated in Memphis, only two hours drive from Nashville.  I saw the anger that exploded after the assassination, the peak of the resentment against the government - against the Whites by the Blacks. At the same time flower children movement of the hippies was spreading all over the US. Their slogan was 'Make Love, Not War'.


Bangladesh has gone to the liberation war and I was fighting for the independence of Bangladesh.

Then came Bangladesh liberation war. I immediately jumped into mobilizing support for independent Bangladesh. I started a campaign to generate public support for independent Bangladesh. US government was totally in favour of Pakistani government . We continued our  campaign, and again saw the difference between the government and the people. Leading senators, congressmen, civil society personalities supporting Bangladesh and introducing legislation  to curtail US  government support to Pakistan.





 Immediately after the war was over I resigned my teachers’ job in the USA and decided to come back. I joined Chittagong university, started teaching. Then famine came. This led to the most important milestone of my life. The situation pushed, me into doing something. I saw that people are dying of hunger. I reacted against that. I felt too insignificant to do anything. I cannot do anything, I am not a political leader. I cannot change the country. Then I started feeling that no need to sit idle and watch, I can definitely do something for at least a few people. So I wanted to do that in the village next to the university campus. And that is my complete list of events, which strongly influenced me.
 
Monika Korber: I am wondering, when you say you “started”. How do you think about social problems and where to start? How did you know where to start?

PROF. MUHAMMAD YUNUS: Famine made it very clear for me. People were dying because they didn’t have anything to eat. So I wanted to see if I can be of some help, may be, to just one individual. I was not thinking about the whole village. I didn’t know what that help would be, I said as a human being I can stand next to another human being and offer myself to help him or help her in any way I can and I have to find out what is her or his problem. So he or she will tell me what I should do. I didn’t have a plan. I only wanted to help, not knowing how. I did a lot of small things; each one was different from the other. I saw the people, their problems. One problem became more and more visible. It looked ugly to me. I started hearing the awful stories about loan-sharks. That was not what I was looking for. But they kept coming. I wanted to know more about the loan-sharks because they were so cruel. In order to do that, I wanted to make a list of people who were borrowing from the loan-sharks. When the list was complete, there were 42 people, total amount they borrowed was $ 27 and I was shocked that people suffer so much for so little. Suddenly I realized that the problem was difficult but the solution was so simple. Why don't I lend the money myself? If I do that the problem is over for those few people who took money from me.  I wanted to use the solution - I gave this $ 27 from my pocket so that the villagers can return the money to the loan-sharks and be free. And that’s how it got started. This was not again a design. Something just happened. It was an instantaneous reaction.  I didn’t make a big plan to do things. I didn’t know how to do it, but at that moment, I thought this could be the way. So I did that. Then it became popular. More people wanted money from me. I gladly gave them the money. Seeing the demand for money and limitation of money that I can give from my pocket, I thought of connecting the people with the bank in the campus.

Monika Korber: I understand yes.

PROF. MUHAMMAD YUNUS: No, not at all. When I talked to the bank they said no, this cannot be done. I was very agitated. How can you leave the villagers to the loan-sharks? It is your organization which is supposed to lend money and you say that it cannot be done. You don’t even try. So I went to all the top people in the bank to knock at their doors.  They must do it, I cannot do it. After 8 months of rejections and rejections, I came up with an idea: why don’t I become a guarantor for the bank, sign all the papers, take the risk and ask the bank to provide the money. After seeing that it is impossible to convince the banks to lend money to the poor, I thought this could be a way out to open their door. The idea did not fly right away, but kept on pushing them. At long last they agreed reluctantly. I was very happy that now I can have the money from the bank for the poor people. So I started signing the guarantees, and bank kept providing the money against them.

Monika Korber: So you followed your feeling in the moment.

PROF. MUHAMMAD YUNUS: Absolutely, yes. And there was no B plan. Each time it was one step at a time. And each time I thought that was the final step. But when I took that step I saw there was one more step coming up, because I have to do something else. So I did that. Again, I thought this was the last step, but I find out it was not. Another needed step showed up. Every time I knew that it had to be resolved. And I got busy trying to resolve it.
 
Monika Korber: And what in this all, in all your lifework what do you see, what were the main problems, obstacles you had to confront, to face and what do you think what will the big problems that will come? I remember also in Vienna you told about many obstacles you had to work within the past and what do you see for the future?

PROF. MUHAMMAD YUNUS: If I have to sum up with one word it would be the mindset. As people grow up, they turn their liquid mind into stone-solid mind. That becomes what we call 'mindset'. They interpret everything in terms of what they have been trained to think. Stone-solid mind plays all kinds of tricks with us.  If your mindset tells you this is white, you see it white, even if it’s actually black. Your eye has been trained to follow the instructions from your mind. So when there is segregation in your society, for your mind it’s normal. And then someone comes from another culture, almost like coming from another planet, he is shocked. He says, why do you do that, it’s terrible. But you still don’t see that because your mindset does not let you see that. Our mind forces us to look at the world the way it is set to look at it. Retooling the mind-set is a very difficult task. When you see poor people, you think - that’s the way it is. God has made them that way. They are lazy people. There is nothing one can do about it.  They don’t work hard, that’s their problem. That’s how you explain it away to yourself and you believe in it. We created institutions based on those false ideas. Now it’s hard to change those institutions because behind those institutions are our ideas. If we could somehow change the mindset, then other things become easy to change. The banks saw that the micro-credit borrowers were paying back, their mind told them confidently, don't worry, it will fail, it will collapse. Then they find out it was not failing, it was spreading. Their mind told them, it may work in Bangladesh but it won’t work in any other country. Then it worked in a few other countries.  Their mind consoled them by saying, it works for poor countries, it will never work for rich countries; or it works only with the entrepreneurial poor people, but most of the poor are not entrepreneurial any way, so it will not work. You always find explanations why it should not work because your mindset says, no, it should not work. Your closed mind doesn’t want to see the possibilities. That’s why I think the biggest barrier is mindset, and the institutions built on the basis of that mindset. It is very difficult to change the ideas in the government; it is very difficult to change the ideas in institutions like banks, businesses and so on, because they have been trained to do exactly what others before them had done.
 
 
 
Monika Korber: I understand. And for the future you think out of this mindset you see big problems, you will have to face?

PROF. MUHAMMAD YUNUS: Mindset will remain a problem for a long time, until we learn how to prepare our mind to remain open to receive new ideas and throw away old ideas continuously. Luckily the world is changing ever faster due to technology, particularly information technology. If we depend on only one source of information we are likely believe what it says. But if the source of knowledge and information becomes diversified, and they flow from all directions, initially we'll get confused, but our mind will learn to screen the information and pick up the ones it values. In the process our mind will become more flexible.  
 
Before the explosion of information technology usually one major source of information delivered information to all. Now there are endless sources of information. Each person is a source. Each of us has the capacity to communicate to the whole world. We can reach out to anybody any time almost costlessly, by email, Twitter, Facebook, you name it. Hopefully now the mindset will be more flexible than it was before.  You can make up your own opinion, rather than believe in somebody who passed it on to you prepackaged.
 
 
Monika Korber: So you think that the technology is helping to …

PROF. MUHAMMAD YUNUS: Yes, technology is bringing the reality closer to us. Yes, I think technology is the future. With technology our educational system will change too.  Education system is vastly responsible for our mindset. Traditionally our young people come out of the colleges and universities with their minds moulded by their teachers, by their books, by the things they have read. They don't change much after that. But today it is changing. The young people can get in touch with each other, so they do not need to believe in whatever was said by the book or whatever was said by the teachers because there are other people and they have access to information through technology. They have opportunities to update themselves, and make themselves relevant to the changing society.
 

Monika Korber: I would like to ask you about the intercultural aspect as you said, you went to this part of the world, you compared and you thought you couldn’t believe. Do you think for the social business it makes a difference if there is a certain intercultural background or another and what are the common things and what are the things which make it more difficult?

PROF. MUHAMMAD YUNUS: I understand what you are saying.
 In the beliefs, customs, traditions and religions the Eastern culture always emphasized simplicity in life style. The simpler is your life the more respected you are. If you have a lavish life style, people will not give that respect. You can list many differences in cultures. But I believe all human beings are similar despite all these artificial cultural differences. I would say 95% of all human beings are about similarity, 5% is about dissimilarity.
 
Whatever I am proposing in social business is based on something I consider to be very basic to all human beings. I believe all human beings are entrepreneurs. I believe all human beings have selfishness and selflessness I them. All human beings are creative. All human beings are go-getters. Cultures can give different expressions to them; can suppress some of them, but deep inside of them they continue as a common DNA.
 
So if you go back to that similarity part, then you’ll see even the person who is enjoying so much and consuming so much if you can adjust him in a proper way, he says of course I like to help, he would sacrifice too, for better of the good, better of the other people.
 
 
Social business can thrive in all cultures because it is based on common human traits and yearnings. Because of that I believe it will get positive response in all cultures. It may take a little bit more time in one culture or sub-culture than another, but ultimately I think it is the human instincts that the social business appeals to. Yes, I am selfish, but I am also selfless. So in the selfish part I want to enjoy, in the selfless part I want to dedicate myself in the betterment of my fellow citizens, fellow human beings. Everybody does that.  It doesn’t matter who you are, where you are, your fellow feeling comes up.
 
Monika Korber: I understand and you are one of the outstanding personalities who took responsibility of what you saw and there are others also. But in comparison there are very few who take responsibility. Why it is that someone wants to make profit, maximize profit, when he makes a company, and others do not? So what makes it that one becomes dedicated to social business and the other does not?

PROF. MUHAMMAD YUNUS: I understand, I have tried to give my explanation already, but let me try again. In my case, circumstances pushed me into this direction. Everybody has the same qualities. I had them too. I was forced to dig them up because of the desperation of the situation. Others keep following the beaten path because nobody or no desperation has forced them to bring out the qualities they had inside of them.  

It needs something to bring people to the tipping point. It may be combinations of events or sudden inspiration coming from a visit to a social business, or reading a report about it. Most powerful thing is always to study it in school, and go through academic debates about it.  If you learn about social business when you are in school, it brings out your inner choices spontaneously.

 
 
Monika Korber: Why didn’t you give up and others gave up, …

PROF. MUHAMMAD YUNUS: Back then it did not occur to me to give up. Then give it up for what? What was the alternative? No alternative was hanging before me. Usual alternatives of 'good life' in the west, becoming a career bureaucrat, and such other things did not appear to me as alternatives. I came back from the US. Staying there did not attract me, despite the fact that I had an American wife. I was a teacher, doing pretty well, but I decided to come back with my wife Vera.   She agreed to live here in a war -torn devastated country in an extremely different environment. We lived in Chittagong  for 5 years and then when my daughter Monica was born, my wife said, now let’s go back because we have to raise our daughter, we can’t raise our daughter properly here. I disagreed. I tried to persuade her to stay. She could not bring her to change her mind. When Monica was about 4 months old, Vera went back taking Monica with her.  She wanted me to follow them and start my life in the US. I opted for staying here, hoping that they will come back. I did not go. They did not come. Finally we got divorced. That was a very difficult choice.
 
Grameen Bank and my daughter were actually born in the same year. I had no idea that someday Grameen Bank will grow into a famous global organization and receive Nobel peace Prize. In 1977,  it just began, I was lending to less than a hundred poor people in the village Jobra. This is not to imply that I stayed on because I was doing something important. I was doing dozens of other things.  Even if I was not involved in lending money to poor people I would have still stayed. I could not imagine myself not being in Bangladesh.  
 
 
Monika Korber: So you paid a big price to stay

PROF. MUHAMMAD YUNUS: Yes. That’s right. It was a very painful choice.

Monika Korber: May I ask you, in your book you wrote about the multidimensional aspect of men and also of the spiritual aspect, a chapter where you write that God is in the detail. In which way do you think the spirituality or the multidimensionality influences your life, your work?

PROF. MUHAMMAD YUNUS:  Sooner or later one comes back to the issue of spirituality. I have been addressing it through pointing out the multidimensionality of human beings. I am distressed that economic theory is based on one dimensional human being, the selfish human being.  If you build a theory on the basis of one-dimensional man, then by design you exclude all other aspects of your life. You cut spirituality off right at the start.  All you are left with is a money making man.  When we follow this theory, unknowingly we reduce ourselves to become a very narrow version of a human being which remains busy with making money.  This reduced version of human beings creates a lot of problems for themselves and for the planet on which they live.  They remain so engaged in making money that they can't pay any attention in noticing how many troubles they are piling up for other people. They think paying attention to other people's problem is none of their business.
 
 Human beings are not self-serving machines. Human beings are multidimensional beings. Spirituality is a component of the multidimensionality. This is what prompts human beings ask the fundamental question, who am I, why am I here, what do I do, where am I supposed to go. It makes human beings reflect on themselves. This is what will make human beings do things which were done before, open up new frontiers for themselves, for the planet, and for the universe. But the one-dimensional economic theory blocked everything.
 
Monika Korber: Blocked?



PROF. MUHAMMAD YUNUS: Yes, blocked. Every child is told to study hard, get good grades, and get a good degree, so that he can get a very good job. Every young person is following that path of chasing jobs. He has no time to reflect on who he is, what is he supposed to do in his life time, what kind of world he would like to create. These questions are never raised in the schools, or in his working life. He remains terribly busy making money for himself or for the shareholders of the company he works for. Theory has blocked out all other 'distractions'.
 

Social business opens up the blocked passages of your mind. The moment you open up, you‘ll see so many varieties of ideas are pouring in. Discovery of selflessness in you itself is a massive eye-opener. Social business is a selfless business. Social business raises question for yourself, who am I, it opens up to challenge your inner potential to create the world you want, you get inspired, and you inspire others.
 
Human being started his journey wondering at the sky, wondering at the stars, wondering at the moon, started worshipping the sun, worshipping the moon, worshipping the fire. He is in constant search to find out who he is. He is in process of discovering himself.
 
Monika Korber: Thank you very much.

PROF. MUHAMMAD YUNUS: Thank you.